Cymatics and Mathematica

topic posted Sat, November 25, 2006 - 11:09 AM by  Jenna
Has anyone tried experimenting with cymatics on the wolfram program mathematica?

Best! Jenna
jnorth@webmail.sfai.edu
posted by:
Jenna
SF Bay Area
  • Re: Cymatics and Mathematica

    Sun, November 26, 2006 - 7:27 AM
    pardon my ignorance, but what are cymatics, Jenna?
    • Re: Cymatics and Mathematica

      Sun, November 26, 2006 - 3:28 PM
      Thanks for having the guts to ask the question. I'm not even sure what "mathmatica" is in reference to. I assume it is a computer music platform not unlike Max/MSP?
      • Re: Cymatics and Mathematica

        Sun, November 26, 2006 - 7:27 PM
        lol, thanks for the thanks, Don.

        the older I get and the deeper I delve into music of all kinds, the more I realize that the great master musicians
        have the ability to reconjure 'beginner's mind'.

        As I tell my sound design, drum, percussion, rhythm and bass students, the greatest learning machines on the planet
        are babies. A small child can learn how to both walk and speak a language in under two years.

        Why babies are such learning machines is because

        1) they aren't fighting pre-concieved notions and
        2) Unless they are shamed early on, they have not learned the concept of 'learning is scary', emotionally.

        We seem so afraid not to be experts in this culture (western culture in general).

        So one of the reasons I try to take on a new instrument (and paradigm for playing) ever few months in my life is so that I can
        keep recreating that 'I"m in kindergarten-----beginners mind-------blissfully and ignorantly naive' mentality.

        I think it's a good thing to try and grow every day and we have to go back to being a beginner to do is sometimes.
        • Re: Cymatics and Mathematica

          Mon, November 27, 2006 - 9:50 AM
          Dito, on the discover with the spirit of a child bit. I need to remind myself of that daily, no hourly! thanks.

          Cymatics is the study of pattern formations derived from sound/frequency waves in nature. Check out the experiments of Swiss Scientist Hans Jenny.

          Anyone here using Mathematica?

          Best! Jenna
          • Re: Cymatics and Mathematica

            Mon, November 27, 2006 - 10:07 AM
            Wow, that's so synchronous,

            Just yesterday, I was looking at a film made either by Jenny or a protege about the
            interference patterns that sound generates in sand and liquids.

            Can you hip us to what Mathematica does and where it can be found, Jenna?

            And while you are at it, do you know about Boid algorithms?

            As I understand it, when birds flock (or ants swarm) in nature, they always maintain a minimum distance to each other and a maximum distance. Within that range there is a certain amount of randomness that is worked into the system. These randomly changing
            variations that are , nonetheless, constrained by minimum and maximum constraints can plotted as mathematical algorithms called
            BOID algorithms.

            I'm fascinated in my own digital sound design for my music in the contraint of randomness.

            When a drummer plays a constant 16th note hi hat pattern there is always a certain amount of variable randomness built into the timbre, timing and dynamics of the performance. As a professional drummer (and occasional professional drum machine programmer)
            I've always learned that if I just slightly vary the cutoff frequency, resonance, volume and timing of a programmed hi hat rhythm in
            programmed samples that it can fool people into thinking that they are hearing real drum tracks.

            The application of BOID algorithms to programs that use random generators (FLStudio on the PC platform is an excellent example)
            can cause a lot of electronic music that sounds very 'organic'. I had a reviewer call my very first completely computer composed
            Abstract electronica CD, 'amazingly organic for electronica' . It was the best compliment I ever had for my electronic work.

            I wonder if Mathematica has the ability to apply those algorithms to it's processing.
            • Re: Cymatics and Mathematica

              Mon, November 27, 2006 - 10:21 AM
              mathematica...

              www.wolfram.com

              ...is simply for doing math... but is a very deep program.

              it doesn't allow for real time audio... but it does allow you to generate audio files from equations and functions... and it also allows for the transformation of images to sound and vice versa. really it works in a "journal" or scriptlike environment.

              I have always wanted to experiment with it for audio processing... but it is a very expensive program... unless you hustle up on a student discount...
              • Re: Cymatics and Mathematica

                Mon, November 27, 2006 - 11:14 AM
                I do have the student edition, and am trying to decide if I should renew it or not. It is a complex program, and if I can find another program that is more user friendly for an artist than I'd rather not renew it.

                Thanks Jeremy!
                • Re: Cymatics and Mathematica

                  Mon, November 27, 2006 - 11:28 AM
                  I don't know exactly what you're trying to do with it... generate sound files based on a specific set of equations?

                  what is the end result you are looking for?
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                    Re: Cymatics and Mathematica

                    Mon, November 27, 2006 - 3:06 PM
                    When I discovered those two videos about cymatics
                    sosd.tribe.net/thread/42b...c7bbe093c26

                    The thing that really impressed me was the organic and analogue nature of how the shapes were forming from sound. Just like sound can be created from mathematics in Mathematica and shapes can be formed from mathematics with Fractal programs. But the beauty here is the low tech and the non-computerized method. It could just as easily be happening in the middle of a desert... if you had a tone generator and ... sand.

                    No need for expensive computers and programs... no need for years of study.

                    just naturally simple */*
                • Re: Cymatics and Mathematica

                  Tue, November 28, 2006 - 12:11 PM
                  hi jenna,

                  i don't what your background is but when i was in graduate school there were 2 big math programs - mathematica and math cad.

                  i personally preferred math cad to mathematica. as far as i understand it they basically do similar functions yet math cad has a more graphical interface similar to writing equations on paper while mathematica is a more code oriented program.

                  that was a few years ago though, so i don't know what the state of the art is today.

                  -chendo
                  www.guerrillasoul.com
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                    Re: Cymatics and Mathematica

                    Wed, November 29, 2006 - 5:52 AM
                    You certainly should investigate Cycling 74's incredible object oriented
                    program Max/MSP for sonic creatiion and mayhem.

                    I think it would probably be more practical in terms of generating sound.

                    And Chendo, did you encounter BOID algorithms when you did your mathematics?

                    I'm really interested in the contraint of random processes as a compositional or processing tool.

                    I got really interested in watching migratory birds in formation and swarming ants as a way of determing
                    how to make electronic musical composition more 'organic'. I really wondered if you could map this kind
                    of contrained chaos, as it were (in other words, the birds neither get to close to each other as they fly , nor do they get do close but they are constantly varying their distances slightly as they fly and the constrainst of their flight widens when they turn corners in flight)
                    and then discovered that mathematicians
                    have been mapping these kinds of naturalistic constraints on pattern formation for years.
                    (nothing new under the sun).
                    • Re: Cymatics and Mathematica

                      Wed, November 29, 2006 - 7:29 AM
                      there are a couple max/msp examples for the JSUI object have some boids based animations.

                      do a search on your hard drive for boidroids-example.pat
                      • Re: Cymatics and Mathematica

                        Thu, November 30, 2006 - 2:57 AM
                        thanks, Jeremy,
                        You are always a font of really intelligent information.
                        • Re: Cymatics and Mathematica

                          Thu, November 30, 2006 - 2:59 AM
                          oops, googling that yielded nothing.

                          Do you know the websites that have most of the exchangeable Max/MSP patches?

                          Jeff Kaiser was telling me about some really cool percussion and string generating patches with
                          constrainable randomness factors written into them.
                          • Re: Cymatics and Mathematica

                            Thu, November 30, 2006 - 9:27 AM
                            if you have a recent version of max/msp... you should have the file on your hard drive... it may be a .mxb or .mxt file on a windows sytem instead of a .pat.

                            I have never found any centralized site with a huge collection of max patches... other than the synthsisters site... but that has more of useful objects and abstractions.

                            www.maxobjects.com is pretty awesome.

                            I also haven't checked the max/msp list recently. I believe that I have about 40,000 unread messages in that folder!
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Cymatics and Mathematica

                    Mon, November 26, 2007 - 3:30 PM
                    LIkewise, us engineers used MathCad, and the experimental physicist wannabes used Mathmatica. But that was ten years ago. The big difference aside from the gui was that Mathmatica was way more expensive and capable, and was far easier to do things like matrices with. And surface modeling, wiremeshes, fractals, etc. More powerful, more cpu intensive, and far more than most of us needed for occasional use. More powerful visual rendering as well. I imagine that both have come a long way since then however.

                    But damn, I bet it really could be an awesome tool for creating sound algorithms. I wonder what the softsynth designers use?

                    And yeah, if you're into sound generation, I'm not sure why you would need much more than MaxMSP unless you were uncomfortable with the electrical model and preferred a more purely mathmatical/conceptual approach. Which doesn't describe most synthy types, I don't think....
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Cymatics and Mathematica

                    Tue, November 27, 2007 - 7:10 AM
                    Awesome Posts!
                    Can't wait to reply at length.
                    • Re: Cymatics and Mathematica

                      Wed, November 28, 2007 - 6:29 PM
                      It would be a very interesting thing, to have a visible library of materials and their reactions at different frequencies and temperatures.
                      If one could use software to run the data, putting some super computers to work for a week, maybe a sizable catalog of materials could be amassed.
                      Hasn't this already been done though? Wasn't this Han's Jenny's first task after discovering this dynamic?
                      I have always assumed somewhere that there was this ever growing list of materials, with pictures of each material vibrated from macrosonic (sub audible) up to ultrasonic?
                      One would then be able to perceive formulas that speak as to the basic nature of each material, and perceive what the dynamic families were.
                      One could then begin to study how certain materials behaved like when mixed (there are almost infinite ways materials could be mixed: heated and fused, bonded with a third agent, layered laminar dynamics.... so on).
                      It boggles the mind to start thinking of all the infinite ways materials could be vibrated, and so, software could begin to really tackle the problem of what stuff does when vibrated cymatically.
                      No model would be perfect, but it could be used to decide on new experiments.
                      • Unsu...
                         

                        Re: Cymatics and Mathematica

                        Sat, December 15, 2007 - 1:12 AM
                        Hi Shadoan, been awhile. I would say that re Cymatics you might not want to think in terms of materials but rather the resonant frequency that results in the materials. the scientific model required a medium and for this reason the best material seems to be licopodium powder and this sheet metal stretch taught in all directions.

                        The person to check out regarding Cymatics and Acoustics is John Reid. He is an acoustician and a Cymatics researcher as well he built a device (he's an electronic whiz too) that can present geometrical diagrams that correspond to the carious frequencies without any medium. It's called the tonoscope.

                        I love this video by Reid on Google. it explains indirectly how crop circles are created. Sound is spherical!
                        THE SHAPE OF SOUND: [www.youtube.com/watch

                        All of the biological frequencies have been mapped. Cymatics is a metaphor of sorts but it is also an FDA approved medical delivery (CYMA 1000) system currently only occupying a CLASS 1 status (Pain management) but nonetheless finally legal. There are at least ten books with all the frequencies. This is the only I know that is no underground. [cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll

                        My reference comes with a warning. The frequencies resonate with certain parts of the human body. To experiment could literally be detrimental to your health. Take a course with the Cymatherapy people in Atlanta if you intend to delve deeply.
                        • Unsu...
                           

                          Re: Cymatics and Mathematica

                          Sat, December 15, 2007 - 10:34 PM
                          There is a Cymatics conference in Los Angleles at the end of next month (JAN 26-28, 2008). One of the speakers seems to be the perfect person for those interested in music (mixing) and mathematics as it relates to Cymatics as follows:

                          David Gibson
                          is the Founder and Director of Globe Institute, instructor, Professional Recording Engineer and Producer. He has been studying esoteric systems of sound healing for over 15 years and has an in-depth understanding of the underlying physics of sound. David is also the author of the best selling book, “The Art of Mixing” that uses visuals to explain and show every style of mix in the world, which makes complex structures of mixes easily understandable. His second book, “The Art of Producing,” uses the visual framework for displaying sounds to explain Music Theory. Gibson is also the inventor of the Patented, “Virtual Mixer,” which uses 3D visuals of the mix to control mixing consoles and computerized mixers. He is currently working on a Virtual Reality system where you can step into an image of your own body and be able to place visuals inside the body in 3D. The visuals will then move sounds up and down in a Sound Table so you feel the sounds inside the body exactly where you are seeing the visuals. David is currently working on a book called, "The Sound of Love."

                          The Conference: www.cymatherapy.com/
                          • Re: Cymatics and Mathematica

                            Sun, December 16, 2007 - 6:27 AM
                            Walkin!!! On the money!
                            So, let's all talk about this: if study of wave harmonics inspired Pythagorus, while listening to the muse, he and his hench'mon moved through the seven spheres, and then hid that knowledge... Are we as a culture rediscovering these harmonics and doing the right thing?!
                            I say heck ye!
                            I think we are all seeing that sound is more than meets the ear/eye/sinus/skin/tongue/pineal~
                            But here's one thing.... The page about the shape of sound tried too hard to make sound seem only like a sphere.
                            It can also be a tornado (I saw this once, come out of the edge of a whistle...), a particle, even a human!
                            Shapes of sound move through things, and move things!
                            • Re: Cymatics and Mathematica

                              Sun, December 16, 2007 - 11:59 AM
                              I don't think that "We as a culture" knows much about sound.
                              The only common measurement for legal or social reasons is Loud and Not loud.
                              Most people know inside them that there are Good and Bad sounds but most of them can't put their words into a form to describe the intricacies or specific traits that define Good, Bad, Soft, Loud.
                              There is much more to sound than meets the ear... and much to discuss. It probably has something to do with Global Warming but when will sound have it's own Global International Sound Symposium and front page news coverage?
                            • Unsu...
                               

                              Re: Cymatics and Mathematica

                              Wed, December 19, 2007 - 2:55 PM
                              Shadoan, the sphere I see as the archetype and every other shape and contexural transformation. The crop circle for example, registers the cross section of the spheres unique 'sound' as a 2D glyph, a holistic expression while the shape of the human body is based on interlocking tetrahedron shaped energy fields. The corresponding geometry is more complex depending on the complexity of the corresponding physical manifestation and visa versa.

                              I see humans as less than spherical metaphorically speaking but we are indeed waking up through which we actually are beginning to change at the cellular level. The body is the result and not the course of harmonic resonance and the ego is substantially in the way of getting beyond this ego-centric belief. Most of our beliefs must be dropped at this time to, in the words of the musician Seal, "...get to where we've come from."

                              So many feel that they would lose themselves if they do not hold onto their traditions and beliefs, but the new paradigm is telling us that we exist in this manner because of our mental orientation without which another reality, with it's accompanying values and beliefs, will necessarily follow. This begs the question "Where are we?" which only sound models can begin to answer. We are not our body, we are not our brain and we are not our emotion so where the heck are we?

                              I am intrigued if we are expanding or rather entering into a neutral space at this time. Why? The clouds are beginning to lift and so many people are having revelations about what indeed we are experiencing and have been experiencing in the past. There are certainly planetary and astrological influences but I also think there are groups of people whose awareness and knowledge includes the large scale measures and have used this for political gain for about the last 5000-5500 years before which it seems the Earth was having a different experience altogether. Traditionalists say "Bah humbug," while seekers say "Bring it On!"

                              Sound healing modalities are reporting miraculous results including what can be described no other way than shapeshifting. At the cellular level, pleomorphism is commonplace so it's easy to imagine that we are changing on a larger scale in response to the cellular upgrade going on at this time. Check out colloidal silver and it's effects. Note that the FDA will not allow it to be described as healing anything though they do allow it to be sold.
  • Re: Cymatics and Mathematica

    Sun, April 8, 2007 - 8:47 AM
    Do any of you use Supercollider, that is what I learned on in 1999-2001... I'm not sure if it is used much anymore, I've moved on to Kyma. I remember it was very useful for creating mathematical sounds.
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: Cymatics and Mathematica

    Mon, July 16, 2007 - 3:54 PM
    Good idea Jenna, i was thinking the same thing and i stumbled across this thread in a google search. My son and i are going to try creating some cymatics using his electric guitar and amplifier.

    I also have access to Mathematica and was trying to think of ways to visualize cymatics waveforms. Any specific ideas anyone? if you go to demonstrations.wolfram.com and browse Music, Physics, or Waves, you can get some cool ideas of the things Mathemetica can do.

    • Smearing sonic Genetics...

      Wed, November 28, 2007 - 5:31 AM
      Wolfram is amazing.

      They used to have a cellular automata algorithm in KYMA, bvut since kyma x it has been removed. Of course, you can always create state based genetic algorithms yourself. They have some awesome aplications in anything from parametric deviations (jitter), to synthetic spectrum creations, genetic feedback manipulation, sound placement, even composition of beat and note placement.

      If yall haven't read it, his book "a new kind of science" will blow your mind!

      Have it lovely and hear blissful sounds today.

      >Your friend,
      Adam

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